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Posted: by tigsw_tigsw on Thu. 28 Jun., 2012 at 3:09:00 PM
In reply to: flowerpot "Every little bit helps though."
if those kids come from a home where the parent(s) are bullies themselves whatever little thread slips through to the little bully will be wiped out. We have to do something about the adult bullies now too. Most should never be parents.

Every time a little bully gets caught it should become compulsory for the parent, guardian to go through a course that deflates bulliness in the family. Children's aid may have to be involved.

At teacher interviews non accepting bullies in our society should be mentioned to each parent that comes in as well as printed material that probably will never be read.

Not enough is being done. Maybe the bus monitor situation will get things rolling in the right direction for a little while.

A bully parent can not be a positive influence on the next crop.

So many adults would be surprised to learn they are themselves bullies.

        

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Wow  Actions...
Posted: by wyliesharon on Fri. 22 Jun., 2012 at 2:24:42 PM
In reply to: dreamer16 ""Kids have no respect at school" (Flowerpot in another thread)..."
It was hard to witness such cruelty. I watched the whole tape and was in awe how totally unfeeling these brats are.Dead from the neck up.
 Those little  #$%^&*'s should be made to do volunteer work in a seniors home for at least a year.
 They should have to attend seminars on bullying.
  Year round shoveling snow and cutting grass for seniors.Inside their homes they can scrub the floors and clean their toilets.
 They should be held accountable somehow .All their parents must and should be so ashamed of doing such a lousy job of raising their kids.
 Lucky she was on a bus and not in an isolated area with them because with their mob mentality, I think they were capable of physically hurting her.
 
 

wyliesharon
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I agree when you say they could  Actions...
Posted: by krissie on Fri. 22 Jun., 2012 at 3:18:36 PM
In reply to: wyliesharon "Wow"
be capable of physically hurting her. Remember that one guy behind her that started to poke her arm and his hand went up to her head? She did the right thing to remain as calm as she did. I think had she really confronted them they would have jumped all over her. It is the mob mentality and their minds could have snapped to the point they could have harmed her badly.

krissie
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I haven't seen it mentioned  Actions...
Posted: by asimc on Sat. 23 Jun., 2012 at 2:49:52 PM
In reply to: krissie "I agree when you say they could"
I saw and read about this terrible bullying incident, and it really saddened me that North American society places so little value and respect on its elders.  Asian and other societies place much more respect on their elders, but our society has little to no value for its seniors, and this incident really underlines that.  They see this older lady as an easy target because of her age, and not as a wise person from whom they could learn.  It's sickening how they bully her.  I saw the father of one of the boy's come and apologize, but why wasn't the kid apologizing?  How does that show him responsibility and consequences for his actions? 

asimc
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Dare I play devil's advocate?  Actions...
Posted: by MsGinny on Sat. 23 Jun., 2012 at 7:18:23 PM
In reply to: dreamer16 ""Kids have no respect at school" (Flowerpot in another thread)..."

This is JMHO and a bit of a ramble...

Are we (royal we) feeding into this type of behaviour by broadcasting some types of reality shows where this kind of disrespect, fighting, yelling, disregard for others is being played out before us for ratings? And encouraged for better ratings.   Are we letting kids who are too young watch these types of shows without monitoring and giving a moral compass or guidelines to what is going on? 

Social media is the same ( I don't belong to facebook or such so my ramble is my own take on it). Viewpoints and opinions and comments are made without censorship, care or concern. Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame it seems.  Are children being monitored enough on these sites?  I suspect the answer is no. 

Should children have cell phones at their side all the time?  Constant contact with friends is not a necessity of life, they can all enourage each other in bad behaviour more easily.We all managed to live to our ripe old age with out having cell phones in our youth. That being said, I know it's a different set of circumstances these days.

Bullying seems to have gotten more vicious, more common, or is it just being reported more? 

The sad part about this is the bullies are now the target of being bullied. IMHO, this isn't right. Two wrongs don't make a right. And some of the comments are coming from adults, which is indeed a sad commentary.

As I say, this is just my take on it, rambling, and not being a mother I may be missing some elements of the whole situation.

MsGinny
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cell phone thought  Actions...
Posted: by ABmom99 on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 12:37:05 AM
In reply to: MsGinny "Dare I play devil's advocate?"

for this case - and some others too. 

I wonder if the person who video'd & posted this awful incident had any idea how posting it on the internet really backfired?  Whether s/he (I haven't heard much about the video poster) thought the situation was funny & wanted to share with peers... or was disgusted & wanted to expose them.  In this case - it was really the best thing that could have happened - it did expose the abuse & bullying, Ms Klein has become somewhat of a 'hero' (not quite the right word)... and has been offered incredible support - financial as well as emotional - knowing people around the world are behind her.  How much worse would have happened - or bullying continue to happen if this hadn't been exposed?

Hopefully this really puts to test the lipservice some put to 'zero tolerance' - the 'we don't allow it' - to putting some teeth into the policies and the bullies do face the music. I don't believe a lot of adults realise the scope of how ugly bullying can be - and its always 'the other kids' fault, mine would never do that'.  Now perhaps there's been a waking up... this stuff is ugly and it happens far too often - whether its a neighbor's child, bus monitors, teachers, classmates or the kids on the hockey team. 

 I'm not advocating the bullies (or their families) face lynch mob mentality of harrassment or harm - but that the parents realise how their actions (or lack) do influence kids' behavior, that the kids themselves are truly sincere in their remorse. A forced apology isn't sincere as it so often means 'I'm sorry I got caught'... not I'm truly regretful of what I've done.

ABmom99
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Agree  Actions...
Posted: by dreamer16 on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 11:48:19 AM
In reply to: ABmom99 "cell phone thought"
n/t


"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
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Posted: by dreamer16 on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 11:54:11 AM
In reply to: MsGinny "Dare I play devil's advocate?"
I've often wondered about this with reality shows too.  In some ways it seems to glorify this type of behaviour.  Yes, this is how some, or perhaps many, people do behave, but do we want to present this as the norm.  Not that we should be trying to hide this either, but too much of this and gradually, after seeing or experiencing this repeatedly, it does become a part of us in ways that we're often unaware of.


"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
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Look at the appalling rudeness generally...  Actions...
Posted: by Marsha on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 2:03:43 PM
In reply to: dreamer16 "..."
that you see on these shows and that seems to be perpetuated by the shows....incredibly rude people at bridal salons (rude to the staff, rude and insulting to the bride and her choices); now there is a bridesmaid one and I've heard ads with women saying "if I have to wear that, I won't be in your wedding party!"- what the heck is THAT sort of behaviour all about, for crying out loud?  House hunters looking at prospective homes and saying very rudely (and knowing it will be televised) "have you ever seen anything so UGLY??? How do people LIVE like this?"  I mean, say that to your spouse in private but when you know there is a good chance the home owner is going to hear you ripping apart their home....it's just plain rude and these are all ADULTS!  So it's not just the Snookies and the people in those Big Brother houses - all these shows seem to make rudness the norm - it has seriously lowered the bar on what is considered acceptable behaviour.  And I remember decades ago, when I first started teaching, a report that showed that kids put far more belief/importance into what they see on tv than into what their parents, teachers, etc. tell them.  If this was true in the late 70's, think how much more it must be the case now and how much trashier the tv role models are.

Marsha
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A lot of what you  Actions...
Posted: by BoJo on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 3:21:02 PM
In reply to: Marsha "Look at the appalling rudeness generally..."

have said in your post is the reason behind me having never let anyone in my home watch The Simpsons. When I would keep my nephews for a week, I'd tell them that if I caught them watching it, I'd pack their bags and take them home right then and there. My DB used to let that horrible show be a babysitter to his kid and now he wonders why he's got a selfish, spoiled brat at almost 18.

However, this nephew does respect me, and one time when he was little he asked me 'Aunt B - why won't you let anyone watch The Simpsons?'. I gave him my reasons and I think that part of why he respects me.

BoJo
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simpsons  Actions...
Posted: by ABmom99 on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 4:36:17 PM
In reply to: BoJo "A lot of what you"
actually are not a bad cartoon. I too was 'not in my house' for years when my kids were younger, then as they got older, I did let them watch it. I tuned in listening to a number of the shows - get past the 'tude' and many of them actually developed good plots with very relevant messages - environmental, racism, treating family members, the community etc. Very contemporary in what the show offers - with actually quite positive kinds of messages. 

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Posted: by dreamer16 on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 10:23:36 PM
In reply to: ABmom99 "simpsons"
My kids watched this when they were teens.  At first I thought this was just another mindless show put out there for kids, but when I sat down and actually watched it, I saw that there were plenty of things to like about it.  I haven't seen it in years.  Apparently it's one of the longest running shows on TV now.


"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
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Simpsons vs real people  Actions...
Posted: by Marsha on Mon. 25 Jun., 2012 at 6:54:48 AM
In reply to: BoJo "A lot of what you"
I think that there's a big difference between The Simpsons (or something like The Three Stooges, back in my day) and real people acting so badly in real situations, whether it's that show about the hoarders or all these bride shows.  My dd was watching one last week where 4 or 5 brides compete to win a honeymoon; it wasn't as bad as some of these "reality shows" but still, they were basically encouraged to be catty and criticize all the other weddings; that cooking show where all the disparate people come to dinner - Come Dine With Me - is another example....you're in someone's home for dinner, a dinner they've cooked for you and, sure, it may not be very good but the way these people go after one another - "she looks like an old hooker" - comments like that....I know the shows encourage this and they'd be dull and get few viewers otherwise but, having watched this show a lot, I never cease to be appalled by some of the really rude and vulgar behaviour of some of these people.  

I'm rambling on and on but my point was that kids (and adults too) are increasingly surrounded by examples of this alarmingly rude behaviour...it is being presented as "the norm".

Marsha
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I guess..  Actions...
Posted: by flowerpot on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 3:22:22 PM
In reply to: Marsha "Look at the appalling rudeness generally..."
..that's why I don't watch any of those shows.  I think last season was the last I'll tolerate Survivor and Amazing Race too. I think they are encouraged to act like that or even scripted to a point.   Hamming it up for the camera just doesn't cut it anymore. 
                                        

flowerpot
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Posted: by dreamer16 on Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 at 10:08:41 PM
In reply to: Marsha "Look at the appalling rudeness generally..."
Yes, this does seem to be everywhere on reality programs, not just the ones where you'd expect them to be tearing one another apart.  I watch the shows that you mention and agree with you.

The worst incident that I can recall on the bridesmaid dress show was when the groom decided to tag along (why, I don't know) and then proceeded to take over the entire decision making process.  But not only did he choose gowns that these bridesmaids did not want to wear, he purposely chose ones so that he'd be able to heckle them when they had to walk back in them (based on their size or attributes).  He turned this entire event into a joke and an humiliating experience for these bridesmaids who were forced to put on these dresses that they knew they would look horrible in.  I do understand that the sales associates' hands were tied, since they couldn't very say, especially in front of a camera, that this bride's potential husband was an -ss and what on earth was she doing thinking of marrying this guy, but why show this particular episode?  Ratings, of course, is the answer.  So then some stupid people will be left with the impression that this type of behaviour is just fine, and on this will go...

A reality show that I enjoy watching often is Pawn Stars.  Some might find their kidding around to be offensive, but I don't.  I realize that's just how these people are, and when it comes to their business, they're always respectful to their customers and expect the same in return.  What I do enjoy about this show is how they go into the history of most pieces that are brought in and eventually sold, and that's the real reason that I watch this.  I'm fascinated by what people have in their 'closets' and in what way these pieces have historical value.  But, that said, there's another program based in Detroit that also has a family at its helm, and I can't stand it simply because of all the stupid bickering, rudeness, shallowness, ungratefulness, and inflated sense of self-importance that is shown on the few episodes that I did try to sit through.  That seems to be all that this program is about so I won't watch it anymore.

I watch House Hunters and others like it too, and the attitudes of the potential house buyers used to annoy me but I've learned to overlook it, except for the rudeness towards the homeowners, of course.  Now I treat it more as a something to roll my eyes at and then move on.  I especially love it when a couple finds a house that's perfect in every way but they abhor the colour of the paint in a couple of rooms so they have to keep looking.  ;-)  But unfortunately this does send a message to others out there who think that they're that special too, and that message is that this is the norm and nothing is ever too far beyond reality for what 'we' want, because after all, our wishes will always be granted, even if we possibly can't afford it.  And again... Roll of the eyes 
 






"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
edited Sun. 24 Jun., 2012 @ 10:10:22 PM by dreamer16
 
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I think it does have an effect  Actions...
Posted: by vibrantgirl on Tue. 26 Jun., 2012 at 10:10:33 PM
In reply to: MsGinny "Dare I play devil's advocate?"
and it was starting even before reality shows, imo.

I noticed movies started showing adults as dimwits, and the kids as incredibly knowledegable and competent, it's got to be at least 15 years ago now.  When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, there were movies and books about kids independently having adventures and so on, and the adults were kind of in the background, benignly neglectful, I suppose, but they were never portrayed as incompetent or naive etc.

Reality shows, violent video games, parents who don't spend time with their children, but buy them everything they want and fill up their schedule with 5 bazillion activities or tutoring.  Parents who want to be liked as friends by their children and don't want to make unpopular decisions.

I notice at our school that our lunchroom supervisors, who also supervise the yard at recess, are not respected.  It seems the students sense who has power in the school, and if they get a whiff of any kind of insecurity, they take advantage of it.  Not all kids, but there is a certain core group, usually with a leader or two who the other kids feed off of.  The supervisors are not particularly trained to work with children, and really these days you either have to have an intuitive sense, or be trained, otherwise it doesn't go well.

I also think children these days are lacking social development, so that they are less mature than previous generations at the same age.  At school, I see more children who have difficulty sharing, compromising, taking turns.  At home, they are used to having total control of the video game :) 

And there are some people who lack empathy, who are emotionally callous and enjoy conflict and violence.  We don't quite know how to help adults, let alone children, who have these traits.

vibrantgirl
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Posted: by dreamer16 on Tue. 26 Jun., 2012 at 10:53:00 PM
In reply to: vibrantgirl "I think it does have an effect"
I've noticed that switch too in how children and adults are portrayed on television and in movies.  I'd say this has been the past twenty years.

I also agree with what you say about the lunchroom supervisors.  We had a large number of them at my kids' elementary school (it had a thousand students) and I'd often talk to them when I was there.  Kids do have strong intuitive skills and can zero on insecurity or weakness, whether this is in other kids or in those supervising them.  The supervisors had to really be good with understanding and being able to handle kids, or they'd soon lose control of the situation.  At that time, swarming was the method that they'd most often use.  But, that was several years ago.  

I also agree that there are far too many kids who are lacking social development.  This is a complex problem, and one that isn't so easily solved.  

Also, is it possible that some of these kids might not be able to alter some of these deficiencies (those who lack empathy, who are emotionally callous) now that they've passed certain developmental levels?  Isn't there some point where developmentally we must acquire these types of abilities or we're no longer able to learn this?  I seem to recall learning something about this.  ????  


"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
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developmental levels  Actions...
Posted: by vibrantgirl on Wed. 27 Jun., 2012 at 10:17:39 PM
In reply to: dreamer16 "..."
Interesting we've seen some of the same things...

The latest research I read (darned if I can find it again now) was about a study which looked at eye gaze of infants, and then the effectiveness of behaviour treatment as they got older.  What this study found was that there were certain infants who did not return the mother's eye gaze.  When they looked at the effectiveness of behaviour modification and other parenting interventions for those children with problem behaviours, they found that the children who had normal eye gaze, responded to the interventions, but the ones who didn't return the eye gaze, did not change as a result of intervention.

The researchers determined this to mean that it is not anything the mother did which causes some children not to develop empathy, it might actually be an inborn brain trait in some people.  

So, according to this study, infancy was the developmental level.
If it is true that certain people's brains develop in such a way that the areas connected to empathy don't work properly, maybe we can find a way to fix that, or at least know more about how to channel the behaviours into more pro-social behaviours, even if the underlying reason isn't intrinsic.  People who have sociopathic tendencies can and will follow societal rules, if they perceive a benefit for themselves--which could simply be avoiding a punishment.  The ones who take pleasure from pain to others (the sadists) I'm not sure what could be done for them.

Well, I couldn't find the article I wanted, but I found this one, which is along the same lines, http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/363/1503/2567.full

Having worked with some kids with the callous traits, what strikes me is that they are rarely happy or content.  Their emotions are shallow and fleeting, so even good feelings are superficial.  More often, they are unhappy, irritable, angry. To me that is sad, and in its own way, unfair, if it is a brain based issue, because they didn't choose to be born that way either.  It's just like any other kind of disability though, I guess, where some people have to work twice as hard, to get half the results.  So it still is about their choices in the end.

vibrantgirl
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Posted: by dreamer16 on Wed. 27 Jun., 2012 at 11:35:28 PM
In reply to: vibrantgirl "developmental levels"
I'm babysitting my gd tonight, and for the next couple of days while my dd has some (minor) medical tests done and does the prep for them.  I need to get to bed so I can wake up fresh and alert when that smiling little face peeks out at me over her playpen rail, so I'll read this and the link later on, and respond later.  Otherwise, it'll just be a mish-mash and likely not readable.  Thanks for the great response.  Looks interesting.


"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
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Extremely interesting post and related paper...  Actions...
Posted: by dreamer16 on Sat. 30 Jun., 2012 at 7:01:02 PM
In reply to: vibrantgirl "developmental levels"
I've finally had time to read this.  That said, it's been a busy day and, as per usual, I'll likely skip around with this post so bear with me.

When I mentioned earlier that there certain developmental points where one was unlikely to progress beyond this if too much lack of stimulation or damage had been done, I was thinking of the 3 to 8 year range, which was mentioned in this paper.  I'd forgotten the exact ages.

But that said, I had learned about and/or read multiple studies of, to simplify this, secure attachment versus reactive attachment disorder.  There, it was often shown through infant's eye gaze whether they were securely or not securely attached, again, to simply this.  But, the assumed reasoning was that this eye gaze, or lack of it, was because strictly of this attachment, or lack of it, and not as a result of any underlying issues.

I found it interesting that they've now taken this a step further with their research and have found a biological component to this.

From what I've learned recently, there is no longer any nature-nurture debate, but instead, academics agree that it's nature and nature when it comes to childhood development.  This paper is a good example of that.

Again, just based on this paper, and from observations of life, I'd have to say that environment could still play a key role in this; however, that role would be short-lived in the case of empathy, callousness, the inability to maintain eye gaze, the development of sociopathic or psychopathic behaviour, to name but a few examples.  As is stated in this paper, some of this might even be unattainable, based on circumstances and the reality of life.  

Think of it this way, if this is inherited (genetic), which it appears to be, and those who pass this genetic material on, have been in raised by those with this genetic material and who likely had a parent or parents and grandparents, who also had this genetic material, and so on, then the environmental factors would be strongly against this infant that he/she would stand any chance of having this reversed.  It would take concerned others or the state to step in early enough on to either take over the care of this infant at this point in their life, before the damage is permanently done, and then offer the necessary resources to these parents to ensure that further damage would done, if they should be returned to them.  When one looks at the foster care system, it seems unlikely that this could be a successful venture at the moment, given the number of concerned individuals that this would take to guarantee the success of this.  And when one looks at this ethically, as this paper mentioned, this also might not be attainable.  

Something else to consider is that given that this is a genetically based 'flaw,' one could likely test for it upon birth, once the appropriate tests were made available on a widespread basis, if this could even be affordable to individuals or the nation, and then it would easy enough to identify those at risk.  But, again, what could be done with these results?  This is where ethics would come in again.

I do think that with appropriate intervention a number of problems could be solved, but this might be an impossible task given how widespread this problem has become recently.  
This is an unfortunate situation, that is, until someone comes up with a viable solution to this problem.

I do agree with your observations about callous children.  I've noticed the same.  And also about other children who are disturbed in other ways.  They aren't happy.  They want to be, but they often don't know or understand what it takes to experience this either.  So, they continue to behave in the same ways, only worse, hoping to get a different result.  They lack the experience or judgement to know (deep down) how to behave any differently.  But just the same, they know that something is missing, that they want to experience what others are, yet they're unable to figure out exactly what that is and that something is simple joy or happiness.  It just continues to elude them.

I do agree that it's unfair that they didn't choose to be like this.  And it is like other types of disabilities in some ways.  Except, in this case, I do differ in my thinking on this.  With most disabilities, both the parents and the child and/or adult must often work twice as hard to get half the result(s), but in this case, the parent is the one who must work twice as hard to change the child's inborn circumstances.  The child can do nothing to change this once their fate has been cast in stone, due to this being one of those environmental factors that developmentally is set early on in infancy.  This choice is solely up to the parent; a parent, who may also have been affected by this early on life too, so is unable to alter the course of their life path too.  That's what I think is really sad about this.

  

 

 


"Why fit in when you were born to stand out?"  Dr. Seuss

 "Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does."  (unknown)

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."  George S. Patton

The poster formerly known as Writer Mom (stolen from Prince)  

dreamer16
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